Michel: The second law will never believe anything at first. And the third law is people will never do anything at first. So the three steps, I call it the three P's. Pull them in, prove your case, push them back. And copy, when you should pull them in, the headline, people will scroll down a web page.
So you've got tons of things that you can do to pull them in. Headers throughout the copy, the story. Prove your case is of course credibility and proof and all that stuff, and your offer and value buildup and guarantees and testimonials. And push them to act is of course asking for the order, making the offer.
Don't be wimpy about it, don't be shy about it. And I think that that tsunami, the **** story that you just mentioned is something I read a lot too from you, is so important because people are inherently lazy.
Michel: People are all lazy. And they will procrastinate at every opportunity. And if you have that in your mindset, in the back of your mind when you are writing copy, you know, rather than writing something about how great your company is or it's been founded in 1985, blah, blah, blah, who cares about that?
John: That's right.
Michel: Did you — We have just a little bit of time left here, and you have mentioned to me that you wanted to also talk about a bit of marketing, I guess, and you talked about, for example, the passing parade and easy picking from the goldmine. Did you want to talk a little about that?
John: Yeah, I think we've covered –
Michel: We've covered it, yeah.
John: I actually think we've — I was thinking about have we covered that or not. You know, one of the phrases that I use, I don't know where I picked it up at, was get into the conversation already in your prospect's mind. That taps into the getting into the passionate sweet spot.
People are passionate about stuff. There are a number of people who aren't passionate about anything, they're called dead. To any market you go to, for every hundred people there's going to be five probably that buy from you. You know, so you're never going to sell everybody.
But, you know, when you start narrowing that down, so rather than just going to a hundred people, what if you went to a hundred bowlers. You know, instead of just a hundred people, you know, out of the general population.
Michel: Right, right.
John: What if you went to — What if you narrowed it down even more and went to a hundred bowlers who have bought something before on bowling. What if you narrowed it down to a hundred bowlers who have bought something before over $100.00. You know, keep narrowing that down.
What you do is you start updating the value of that customer. And eventually that's what you're house lists at. If you go to a hundred thousand people and you get a thousand people out of that who buy something from you, then they buy again, well, right then that's the beginning of your hot list.
And your hot list is people who have raised their hands and said, I want what you have and I'll buy even more of what you have. And those are the people that are going to create the wealth for you.
Michel: Okay, well –
John: You talk about the easy pickings out there.
John: You know, some of us have been blessed, and you know when the web started really being used by a lot of people it opened up a lot of markets where people were just walking in. And it was just like walking into a, you know, say you're a caveman in the forest and you walked in the part of the forest where nobody had been, and there's all this low hanging fruit.
You know, you're hungry, you've got a hundred peaches and pears right there, you don't even have to work at it. So if you're the only guy there you don't have to work very hard at all. Anything you send out. If you're the — you know, if you're the only guy selling hamburgers to a starving crowd, you know, as Halbert has talked about quite a bit, you don't have to have good hamburgers.
You don't have to have anything at all. And in fact, you may only have to whisper to one guy at the edge of the crowd, I've got hamburgers. And that's all you need to do. So you can get away with bad copy, sloppy marketing tactics and stuff when you're the only person in the market.
I don't think there's any markets left on the web or anywhere else in our capitalistic society where you're the only guy anymore. So you don't have — all that low hanging fruit has been picked. All the big chunks of gold in the mine have been picked up.
So you've got to start getting to, you know, start refining your tactics, you know, be able to climb the tree or be able to find new parts of the orchard, you know, that hasn't been picked over or, you know, find other ways to do it.
Or, at some point, you're going to have to find a way to — like they do, you know, in Nevada here, we have silver mines that are 150 years old and every five or ten years technology advances to the point they go back through the dirt that was taken out of the mine, you know, back in the 1850s, go through it again and they find enough silver left over that previously technology didn't find that it makes it worth while, you know.
Michel: Uh huh.
John: But they have to wait another five or ten years for the technology to advance again to do it again. So they're constantly going through the pilings, as they call them. So, you know, it's — looking at your market, it's like what I was talking about with the changing nature of technology.
You know, things change. And you know, don't get — a lot of people either start out as rookies and they try to go into really crowded markets like diet markets or, you know, how to be a web guru, you know, how to, you know, something where they're just going to be up against people who know more than they do, have been in it for longer, have learned more and have better skills.
You know, there are markets out there that are crowded but guess what, they aren't crowded with the kind of people that have direct marketing savvy. They don't, you know, they don't have good ads. Just like that first golf ad, that was the first really good direct response golf ad that has ever appeared in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine or Golf Tips, ever.
And it just — it was — you talk about low hanging fruit, it was like you walked through the orchard blindfolded and you just pull your shirt out and the fruit drops in, you know, it was just massive.
And then of course other people caught on and this has happened with several markets I've been in, you know, it actually changes the nature, the look of the magazine as more and more people start realizing, well, copy works and I can't get away with the bullshit Madison Avenue type of ad they were using before. So, things start to change, so. Does that answer your questions? Did I go off on a tangent?
Michel: No, no, no, no, that was perfect. I was just mentioning a little bit earlier about something you teach a lot is the power of personalization and you were talking bowling earlier and going after the, you know, the easy pickings.
Michel: Well, I think, I think one time you mentioned about if you're trying to sell a bowling product to, you know, bowlers — any kind of one specific type industry is always going to be passionate about that one industry. You know, people that fish, the golfing industry, etc., etc., but you were saying something like, if you can even be more specific, like rather than saying, dear bowler, you say, dear left handed arthritic bowler.
John: Yeah, right.
Michel: To do that.
John: Keep knocking it down, keep, you know, you know, the best list you're always going to mail to is the house list that loves you dearly.
Michel: Uh huh.
John: And every step you take away from that you're going to have up the ante a little bit, it's not going to be so easy to sell yourself to them. You know, even to your house list, by the way, seller personalization, you know, never forget that people's lives are like 15 year old girls, you know, a 15 year old girl's life will change three times in an afternoon because so much stuff is happening. Your — The person you're writing to, he may have just bought something from you for $1,000.00, but tomorrow he's not going to remember your name, necessarily.
John: So don't take that kind of stuff for granted. There's too much stuff going on. You know, there's — getting back to that 15 year old girl, she may have loved Brittney Spears yesterday, Brittney Spears is old news, you know, tomorrow, you know, that kind of thing. You just — It changes so rapidly and you've to, you know, you've to keep re-establishing yourself in the, in your buyer's mind.
That's where really knowing your USP comes down, you know, just talk about the unique sales position that you're in, unique, that's, you know, how you fit into this person's life as the go-to guy, essentially as the person they should be going to.
Michel: If you use those detections and you can't seem to find anything unique, then manufacture it.
John: Well, you can do that or, you know, when you start thinking in that way. You know, I never recommend that people lie, I think that's –
Michel: That's not what I meant.
John: Yeah, but I'm kind of clarifying that because it almost sounded like you did.
John: You know, you don't want to — you know, you don't want to start — People think it's so easy to lie, and that just puts you in a whole different group of marketers and shame on you and all the horrible things that will happen to you should happen to you if you lie.
But the reason you shouldn't lie is also, you don't need to, there's always something there, you know. That's why I use the example of, you know, Dave Thomas, the dull boring guy, you know, he's nevertheless, somebody that stands out, somebody that people trust. You have — Everybody has a story.
I wish we had some time, that's probably another call, to get into the art of storytelling. Most people think they can't tell a story. It's because they just don't try.
You know, yeah, if you've never told a story in your life or if you never got to talk around the table, you know, the dinner table at home or you always had older siblings who told you to shut up, then yeah, your first couple of attempts at telling a story are going to bomb.
John: But each one's going to get better and better and, you know, storytelling is so essential to the human, you know, the human experience, especially in modern days, that the more you think about it and the more you actually try it, it's — it just happens quickly. It happens very, very quickly.
It's like the first time you try to wad up a piece of paper and throw it across the room into the trashcan. Yeah, you might miss, especially if you have no skills like that, but the third, fourth or the fifth time you're going to get closer and pretty soon you're going to be nailing that thing, you know.
So just — People are so afraid of a little bit of discipline. You know, I'm one of the laziest guys on the planet and a little bit of discipline goes so far, and especially when you say, okay, that didn't work, let's try it again, well let's try it again, and have some fun with it.
Start moving away from your comfort zone. You know, branch out a little bit, spread your wings, stop being timid, just be bold. And one of the best things you can do to be bold in your market is to realize if you have a product of value then there's no reason at all why you shouldn't be just as bold as the boldest guy out there because you can stand up with pride and say, I have something that is going to change your life, I really can.
And then back it up, tell your story, give your credibility, your testimony, let other people brag for you.
Michel: Just to clarify what I meant by manufacturing, is to create something and maybe to even create either a new product or add a different twist in order to match a specific market or to change your offer by adding something to it or taking something away to make it unique.
John: Absolutely, great idea.
Michel: It's the story of the Monahan brothers with Dominoes Pizza, you know. Thirty minutes to your door or it's free kind of a hook.
Michel: And that's what I meant by manufacturing, is that if you really can't find one –
Michel: — you know, you could create it. I'm not saying lying, I'm not saying create it in your copy, I'm talking about the hook itself. You can create it so that it makes it unique.
John: That's a very good point. In fact, you know, it's funny I didn't know it was the Monahan brothers, so I knew that somebody had to do that 30 minute thing, I didn't know it was them, but you know it and so, you know, that's part of your homework as part of Operation Money Suck is to, you know, know enough of that stuff to have it a functional part of your plan, of your market planning.
So if you sit back and say, what have — you know, just come up with — to start off your marketing come up with ten ideas that people used, just like you said, Dominoes was in a market that was crowded, all they had was pizza, it wasn't even necessarily better than anybody else's, but they knew that people wanted it fast and they were getting it in like an hour and a half, they were getting cold pizza in an hour and a half.
John: How can we position ourselves. And do it some ways that other people are doing it, you know, Coke against Pepsi, just think about the various things. This will help you read books on marketing and not be bored by them.
You shouldn't be bored by them anyway, but some of them are kind of boring, but if you're thinking, you know, how does this apply to me? How can I take the lesson here, you know, like the old — one of the famous is Claude Hopkins writing for Schlitz Beer, you know.
Michel: Yeah, right.
John: Schlitz Beer was just like very other beer, but he sat down and he said, and he went and he interviewed people and he came back and said Schlitz Beer is made with pure spring water and it's purified six times through a, you know, pure copper, whatever, he went on and on and on.
Michel: Yeah, he said it was sterilized.
John: He didn't mention that all beer was made that way at the same time. So he just came out and said — the other beer manufacturers squealed like stuck pigs, we do that too, but it was too late. They came in with me too and other people were talking about fresh beer, they were talking about Schlitz. You still there?
Michel: Yeah, sorry, just dropped my phone here. As you're talking I stand up a lot, whenever I'm on these teleseminars I don't sit down, I usually walk because I can — I think better on my feet. And –
John: I do the same thing.
Michel: And it's strange because this ties to what we're talking about. Very often, when you were talking about stalking your computer –
John: Uh huh.
Michel: — I do that. I very much do that.
John: Yeah, it's like a predator hunting prey, you know, and your prey really is the person that you're after, but the medium you're going to go through is that computer. He's the master of your dominion.
Michel: Yeah, well the thing is it's pure salesmanship, really. And one of the things in salesmanship I was taught when I started out my career from my mentor in those days was the ability to think on your feet. And it's nothing to do with wit, per se, but the ability for example, to overcome objections and the ability to be able to be ready for any kind of killing question, objection, whatever.
And very often, when I'm on my feet, when I'm standing up, it's the same thing as if I'm speaking at a seminar or I'm on the phone or when I'm thinking about what I'm going to write in terms of my copy, I usually tend to stand up, I walk around and I get all these things and these ideas going in my head, not because it's what I really want to talk about but it's sort of these little springboards from which the whole copy and the whole hook and the whole sales pitch and the flow of the sales pitch will come from.
Michel: And I think storytelling is so important, you were mentioning that. And I think we should spend almost an entire call on that because this is something I've been teaching for God knows how long is all great copywriters and all — are great sales people but the one common denominator from both copywriters and sales people is that they're great storytellers.
John: That's true.
Michel: And if you can tell a compelling story, heck, very honestly when I first started out I always bombed. But when I got better it wasn't because I had gotten better it's because I was noticing how people, their body language was changing when I was telling the story.
Michel: What thing I said to cause them to lean forward, to rub their chins, what have you.
Michel: And then I realized, and this comes back right exactly down to what you were saying about the passionate sweet spot, when you're telling a story, first of all you get them hooked with your story but to keep them hooked is to tap into that passionate sweet spot, and I think if you tell your story — talking about stories here, this guy comes up to me and he had a copy, his name was Mark. He created a software — He was one of those guys that goes to these, you know, self-helpmotivational seminars.
Michel: And he had a software that helped you track your goals. And I critiqued his copy and his copy was not bad, but when I dug deeper I found out that this guy used to be a geek for billion dollar companies like, I can't remember the names, but like Hertz and all that stuff.
Michel: And I found out that his strength was making systems or creating software processes that would bring normal traditional business processes that took weeks to create or to do down to seconds, you know, almost.
And I thought, there's your hook. So we talked about the story in his copy and said, if I can do this for billion dollar companies, wow, what can I do for people — ordinary people like you and me trying to reach goals.
Michel: I can help you, you know, squeeze your goalachievement time down to whatever, you know, a fraction or whatever the case may be. But the power of his story was so — it was so huge. And I think that everybody has that story in them.
John: Exactly, especially when you're really passionate about it. One of the problems that people have is that they have trouble, like the accountant coming home to a, you know, to a wife who doesn't want to hear about it. You know, they think, well, I don't have anything interesting to say. That changes.
If you go to a convention of accountants, you know, and I've actually, I've actually been in a bar once with a bunch of accountants when they're drinking, I mean they are, they are wild. To us it's so deadly dull, but to them, their eyes are lighting up, they're like, oh, oh, I can top that. And, you know, you can just see the passion coming out about what, to the rest of us is the most boring thing in the world.
You know, it's just, you know, you've just to, if you can just tap, you can be a lot less skilled salesman if you tap into the passion and you offer something of value.
A lot of other stuff can fall by the wayside, a lot of the techniques and tactics and stuff, because basically if you can, you know, if there's a bunch of people and they're all noisier than you and they're louder and they're taller and they're better looking and they have stuff, you know, eventually, if you can just be heard just a little bit and what you have fits better with what the people want, then you know you're going to do okay, you're going to get something going there.
Then you can get — you know, I talk about the three different kinds of copy there is. You know, there's bad copy, mediocre copy and then there's world-class copy, and the reason I divide it that way is, you know, bad copy just makes you go broke.
You know, there's, so there's bad copy and then you're gone, you're out of there. The world-class copy is everything above a homerun. In other words, what we all want to hit is that thing that the ad runs over and over again, that keeps, continues to pull and gets the business just moving forward either quickly or at light speed or whatever.
Everything else is mediocre.
And the — and while bad copy will murder your bottom line, mediocre copy will just break your heart because you know you're only getting a dribble of what you should be getting if you had world class copy out there.
So, but still with mediocre copy you can survive off it. And then start to build your skills, start to get that stuff up, but you've got to get something out there right away. So the best way to do that is to tap into the passion of your market and share that passion.
Okay, we're about at the, I show about the 10 minutes left, is that right?
John: Okay. I — Is it okay, I wanted to tell people they could get something.
Michel: Yeah, absolutely, go ahead. I apologize because a lot of this stuff, we're passionate about our craft.
John: Well, you know, I never get to talk about this stuff — well, I do actually, I talk about it all the time, but you know, I'm on the phone, I call people up. I have a phone network of people, you know, Halbert and a lot of other writers and other marketers, you know, just hours go by and I don't even realize it because we're talking about something that we truly, you know, share a passion about. So –
John: I was just going to say, I was — I have a bunch of cassettes here from the Scuttlebutt Interview series I did, and I'd just like to offer some people, I think it's something that's kind of relevant.
I interviewed a lot of movers and shakers and if you will — if these people will just send me their snail mail address, I need that because I'm sending the actual product, my email is [email protected] and just give me your snail mail address and your name, I'll send you a cassette of me and Gary Halbert shucking and jiving on probably what I think is the number one lesson of world class business, and it's something I touched on before and the name of the tape is The Go-To Guy and we both talked about this so much over the years when we talked that I finally said, we've got to get this down on tape.
And I have about 50 copies of this thing here, it's a cassette. I know that's a hassle for some people but that's what we got. And so the first 50 people that email to me, I'll keep track of it and I'll send out this cassette to you. No problem.
After 50 I have other cassettes, I have to dig into my — into the scuttlebutt tape archive, but I've got cassettes by Dan Kennedy, I've got other ones by Halbert and me and a bunch of really great stuff covering topics like prospering in a rotten economy, that was me and Gary talking.
This is great, six really easy ways to screw up your business, me and Jeff. Classic salesmanship, the secrets, that's a great one with Sam Fishbine.
Dan Kennedy and I talk about the secrets to success is to scare most people half to death. So we were, you know, these were very specific things, I was very happy. And the product, you know, is something I offer but I wanted to give away something free for the people on this call because I know they sat through two hours of blabbering and I wanted to reward them.
There's a few people on the call, I think, who are already in my world, a lot of people from my hot list knew about this. I wanted to thank them for sitting in and I hope you learned something. That's about all I've got to say.
We thanked Peter Stone, didn't we? He, you know, actually sold me on doing this. We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, what, it's peterstonecopy.com.
Michel: Peterstonecopy.com, absolutely.
John: Yeah, you know, I was happy that he kind of lit a fire under my ass, you know; Michael, you and I have had email contact but we've never really explored ways that we can help each other out or actually spread the word or get, you know, do this kind of stuff.
And you know, this stuff is fun, I mean, and it's necessary. And it's not, you know, it's — we're not all going to be around forever, and there's a lot of really bad information out there.
John: So to get the chance to clarify stuff and to bring home the truth, you know, it's a wonderful thing. So I've got to thank Peter for lighting a fire under my butt.
Michel: Well, he's one of the guys, you know, there's only a few — and when I say guys, I mean gals, too, because I know Lori's, she's another copywriter and so many other people that I know in my entourage, and Peter's one of those guys. He's really the guy that got it.
John: Uh huh.
Michel: Give you a small example, one time there was somebody — I have a form for copywriters. And we all congregate and we sort of give ourselves mini critiques. And one person asked a simple question and Peter gave a little suggestion that literally doubled, I think it was 117 percent his response ratio. I'm talking about increase here.
John: Uh huh.
Michel: And that's just one of the many, many things that Peter does. So Peter is a great copywriter in his own right, and he's, he's also my go-to guy. And if you want to get the scuttlebutt tape, I have that tape by the way.
Michel: And a few others too, John.
Michel: But I think you sent it with your insiders or I have it from buying videos from Halbert or something, but –
John: Yeah, I've sent them out, and I've got a pile here. I was thinking about what I could offer here and I saw this pile, we have about 50 there, so — but even after 50 I will honor sending one of the scuttlebutt tapes to people.
That first one, the go-go guy, just so important because it's a misunderstood concept about what it is to be a go-to guy, what it is to have go-to guys in your life and the importance of both having and being and understanding the nature of the go-to guy.
Because most people sort of wander through life like they're in a pinball game, you know, they just kind of bounce from one thing to the other. And to get ahead, to really settle down and get your, you know, your focus and everything going and put operation money into full bloom, you've got to understand what it takes to move quickly, efficiently and with, you know, money making vigor through life.
And it's not the skills that you came out of school with, it's not the skills that you learn in most businesses and it's not the skills that you come across naturally, you have to learn these.
Most people have to be shown these things. They have to come across them in life. That's why guys like us, who offer this stuff out there, our stuff really is guidelines.
I, you know, I have no trouble at all standing up on a stage in front of a thousand people and just telling them, you need to get this stuff right now, it's mine, it's going to cost you, but here it is. I have no trouble with that because I have something of value.
Michel, you're in the same position. You know, there's no embarrassment, there's no, you know, thinking, well, I'm really sorry to have to be pitching this, screw that.
You know, if you're in business and you want to make moneyand you want the independence that comes with having the skills like copywriting, like understanding marketing, like being a go-to guy and understanding how all this stuff fits together, you know, you're an idiot not to buy everything you can.
You know, people — one of the big mistakes rookies make is that they think, oh, geez, this is a hundred bucks, this is two hundred bucks or it's a thousand bucks or whatever it is, gosh, how am I going to fit that into my budget. Well, you know, if you're buying the right stuff from the right guys, and there are a few of us out there, it's not an expense, it's an investment.
John: And that investment pays off sometimes the same day, like you just mentioned — Peter Stone just mentioned one thing. Most of my testimonials that I run on my marketingrebel.com web site, you know, there's a whole bunch of those, people say, hey, that one tip you gave me just quadrupled sales, you know, that one word change in the headline just, you know, doubled response, you know, things like that. And that's because these things are so powerful. You know, these little things.
And you know, once you learn that trick you can use it again, and then if you learn another trick then guess what, you've started your own little bag of tricks there.
Michel: That's something that I've learned a lot from you, John, is that gun to the head mentality.
John: Right. Yeah, you're right.
Michel: And a lot of people have — There are a lot of rookies have to have that in order to get to the point of world-class copy, is to think or to have or even force yourself to have a gun to the head almost.
John: That's right.
Michel: And the thinking process –
John: You know, it's like these calls, you know how pumped up you and I get.
Michel: Uh huh.
John: I think a lot of people listening to this also get pumped up. Hey, use that. It will go away. In a few days your enthusiasm may start to lag and your motivation starts going, you may start thinking, ah, geez, but you know one of the things — one of the reasons that copywriters, top copywriters talk to each other and, you know, walk around and spend two hours on the phone is because we thrive on that kind of, on that motivation, we thrive on that feeling of being pumped up, you know, and you know, being part of the network.
We're always pumping each other up. Halbert's calling me all the time to pump him up and I call him all the time. And there's, you know, a dozen other guys I call and we talk to.
And it's like you and I were talking about music before, you know, we were trading emails about music. I mean it's just, after I talked to you, I went out, you know you mentioned the Stones and I went out and listened to the Rolling Stones for an hour –
John: — and I just got all pumped up again, you know. We thrive on this stuff. Because it can get you down. Because sitting in an office all day or thinking about how you're going to make money from your site and just, you know, just — if today is the same as yesterday and the same as the day before and it looks like it's going to be the same tomorrow, then there's no passion going on there.
You know, a really vibrant business, things are happening, things are hopping and it's kind of, it's the feeling you get when you write an ad, you sit down and you get excited about it and you think you've hit it and you send it out and you get to see what that little puppy does in the real world. There's no other feeling like that.
John: So I guess we're at the two-hour mark.
Michel: That's perfectly fine, we'll end it here. But before I do that I just want to repeat a couple of things and I want to — First of all, I want to thank you, John.
Man, it's always a pleasure to talk either with you or on a seminar like this because you're not only a wealth of knowledge but, you know, you were talking about the passionate sweet spot, well you've hit mine by talking the way you talk and it's just so incredible because the information you give is, I mean, I've been writing copy for 15 years.
I've broken records and I still learn every single day and I still learned today on today's call. And I'm the first person to admit that. And I want to thank you so much for taking some time. And people, if you want that free tape from John, please send your snail mail address to [email protected]
John: I also wanted to say, I started my Blog today. It's — you know I was talking about getting involved in some of the geekier stuff. I actually started a Blog. I don't know how often I'm going to be putting it up there, but I think we're going to be putting it up there a fair amount, and that's at john-carlton.com. If anyone wants to just check that out and maybe bookmark it and go back and see what kind of blatherings I'm going to have on that.
Michel: And Carlton without the E.
John: Yes, john-carlton. I noticed in a past thing you put the E in. Dan Kennedy is still putting the E in my name after 15 years. You know, it's — What's great about the people that are in this is that we, you know, when you start getting involved in the personalities and stuff of the people in marketing, it really is fun.
It's just a passionate group of people who are moving and shaking and doing a lot of stuff. And you know, the ability to get invited to that big damn roundtable of insiders is just a matter of succeeding. It's just a matter of getting down and working at it and share that passion to the point where at some point you are one of the guys.
Michel: Oh, yeah. Many of the seminars that I go to, that I even speak at, the bulk of my business is not done in that seminar room or even on stage.
Michel: It's in the hallways, it's at the restaurant, at the bars. At that seminar, it's outside. It's, you know, it's where we share the passion rather than just being in a seminar room.
John: Yeah. The big marketing group hug.
John: All right, listen, this was great, really enjoyed it, I think my voice is about to go. I hear yours about to go.
John: So what do we do, do we just hang up or?
Michel: Well, this is what we're going to do, we're going to hang up but I want to thank everybody. Thank you so much for being on this call, it's been an amazing call and thanks to Peter Stone, the producer of this call, peterstonecopy.com.
John, of course, your web site is marketingrebel.com. Mine is thecopydoctor.com. And hopefully we'll see you again on another call. Thanks, John.
Michel: Goodnight folks.
John: Okay, bye, bye.